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The Sentinel
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 733
Location: If I'm on-line, sat at the pc
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 Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, fuck my old boots!!!!!
From an opinion on the meaning of "Holy Diver" to a meaningless discussion on the meaning, and evils, of money!!!!
Now, where's my money-laden wallet...................................
_________________
Sick of all of this
The suffering and we just carry on
Isn't it time we care and lose the hate
Understand our fears |
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Holymagica
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The Sentinel wrote: |
Well, fuck my old boots!!!!!
From an opinion on the meaning of "Holy Diver" to a meaningless discussion on the meaning, and evils, of money!!!!
Now, where's my money-laden wallet...................................
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So would you say this has become off topic  |
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futurefreak
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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@ The Sentinel
Thereīs one fundamental difference between my posts and your post:
My opinion has arguments.
Your opinion has no argument.
But OK, I can understand this. You will never be able to find any argument against my explanation of "Holy Diver".
You can try and learn a lot, or you donīt try. Itīs your decision.
_________________
"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible." Arthur Charles Clarke, second law of prediction. |
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Holymagica
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| futurefreak wrote: |
@ The Sentinel
Thereīs one fundamental difference between my posts and your post:
My opinion has arguments.
Your opinion has no argument.
But OK, I can understand this. You will never be able to find any argument against my explanation of "Holy Diver".
You can try and learn a lot, or you donīt try. Itīs your decision. |
But its just your personal view...its NOT FACT....
Sorry but everyone's opinion counts in here....either with argument or not....if Member X wants to say that Holy Diver is about a Priest who sleeps with whores then that person can say that.
Anyway....I think you should always look for the inspiration behind a song....Ronnie spent alot of time in Cornwall...in a small place called Pelynt (pronounced Plint)....The history of Cornwall would have fascinated Ronnie....with its many Stone Circles etc...the answer to the real meaning of Holy Diver can be found in Cornwall and in Ronnie's metaphors.  |
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obscene
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 412
Location: Hotel California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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So, futurefreak, dude, you're saying that money can't buy anything.
So, why have it. Why not share everything. Everyone owns everything. From Each according to his ability and to each according to his need. For example, if everyone on this forum was in the last place on earth with living human beings, and we had a few more people (enough to exceed your 150 limit...wherever that came from), couldn't we all just share everything. All the guitarist teach their skills and play for the "commune". All the vocalists sing and teach singing......musicians do what musicians do.............
writers write stuff and teach writing...........
we have one person in control,,,say Holy cos he's the Forum dude here, and when he dies off, we have a successor (assuming they don't die off before he does) we have like thecoop or The Sentinel or some one like that. Everyone can have access to everything. No money needed.
Then you say that the money-function is what matters, but if all live in a total access commune, like our ancient ancestors, there is no need for money, hence, no need for a money-function.
Wishes and ideas. Beautiful things to become realisations, cures for cancer, faster automotives, new chemicals for cleaning, houses, and tasty food. Dangerous things too. Why, nuclear bombs, air pollution, poisons, extermination of the ecosystem, and crappy food. So, is it okay that many should die and thousands of rainforest animals be robbed of their homes so you can buy a new toilet seat cover.
THe problem with your function is this......
[quote=futurefreak]Wrong money-function: Everybody wants to have as much money as possible.
Right money function: Everybody automatically wants to have (earn) as much money as he wants to give (buy something or lend). [/quote]
But people will always want to have as much as possible. No one cares how much they earn. I'd love to be paid a million dollars an hour for sitting on my ass watching TV..........no one will automatically want to "earn" as much as he wants to give.
In my imaginary commune, everyone will already have as much as possible because everything belongs to everyone. Everyone has total access to everything. (holy shit, I'm a communist, always thought I was an anarchist).
Next error
[quote=futurefreak]Wrong money: You can "earn" (blackmail!) money with money.
Right money: You can only earn money with work (and ideas). [/quote]
Wrong money and right money, in my opinion, lowly as it is, all money is wrong. For one reason, you say with work, and in parentheses, ideas. Ideas. What does that entail. Should the neo-nazis be given money for their ideas, after all, its being marketed.
Osoma bin Laden should get a weekly paycheck because his ideas are all useful to some one somewhere. Pay him man! And hell, he did all that work and ideas. Blow up blow up kill alot of people.
In the commune, its simple as hell. Take what you need from what the commune owns and give as much as you can. Your counterargument should be that in the commune, there will always be those who just take and never give. Simple, cruel solution. On the forum, if some one on this forum is trouble they get banned, in the commune people are exiled. If they are caught stealing, then execution.
We are all angels.
Evil or divine-does not coexist.
_________________
Chase the horizons, catch the illusion
remember the child within
There's no tomorrow just sadness and sorrow
hold on to the Ancient Dreams |
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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2195
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| futurefreak wrote: |
@DevinMacGregor
There is no fundamental difference between my explanation and of what Ronnie said in his interview!
@Dragon235
In order to realize, that the bible definitely only talks money, you need a bit more, than "remembering your religious studies". |
'ere we go again. First we have William Bloody coming in here and telling us EXACTLY what that entire album means. He tells us his Daddy told him he was dead on in his interpretations etc and thus never wrong. After several of us said what Ronnie has said certain songs mean he basically calls Ronnie a liar. Now we have you coming in and telling us what it means and then talking down to us because you are supposedly ejumakated because you read some fancy books.
Dude you are simply adding a whole lot of BS from your own head to it. Nothing more, nothing less.
To the general masses:
And money is anything. It is a cow, a car, a house, or grain etc. Egyptians used to trade in grain. Money can be time. My time is worth money.
Can money buy happiness? Yes it can. Money can buy a lot of things. We keep blaming money. It is not the money that is the problem. It is our own greed, desires, and general feelings. If we replace all paper and coin currency we would simply use something else.
Most of us do not grow our own food. We will have to barter something to get it. I barter my time to a company I work for. They in turn barter me with a paycheck. It may be a piece of paoer but it has value. As long as we agree to our mutual contract we are both happy. If either of us feel we are not being fully compensated for the value that we each are giving then that particular party is not going to be happy and will want to renegotiate.
This is what we do all the time. We exchange time here on this forum and again our time is money and it has a value. We all the time are in social contracts whether this is subconscious or conscious efforts on our part. If we are happy posting then our time, which is again our money, is well spent. We feel compensated for our money. If we are unhappy then we will most likely not come here because we feel we are not getting compensated for our money, again our time spent here.
Again there is no actual physical currency involved in this exchange on this board. We are bartering our time vs what this board gives us in return. Time is our money. Happiness, anger, sadness, etc are the products that our money buys on this site.
So no futurefreak your interpretation does not mean it is exactly what Ronnie meant when he wrote Holy Diver because money is not evil. Money is not the root of all evil. We are the root of all evil.
In any society no matter the size people have to feel compensated for their efforts. It does not matter what the actual currency they use to exchange the products of their time. If some cowherder needs some baskets he goes to the basket weaver and puts his "money on the table" and says what will you give me for this cow. The basket weaver will then put a value on the cow and put a value on his baskets and determine how many baskets he will trade the cowherder for that cow. The cowherder is happy with this exchange as long as he feels he is being compensated for the cow. If he does not then he will haggle with the basketweaver to add something else. When both come to an agreement and feel they are being fully compensated both will more than likely be happy with the exchange.
Paper currency and coins simply represent a certain value based off some precious metal. It is a more neutral bartering chip. We typically do not think hmm I have a cow so how many chickens is that worth. Eons ago we did. We think of that neutral ground and say the cow is worth 2 grand or something. Each chicken then might be valued at 24 bucks. In that example it would take a lot of chickens to equal that one cow. But the cowherder and the chickenherder do not have to actually trade in that neutral environment. They both though will have to feel they are being compensated for their time and efforts etc.
The same with any type of commune environment. It will work as long as people feel they are being compensated for their time/effort. It is the same with a capitalist environment. One major problem is simply greed. If we have excessive greed then we as well have a lot of people not feeling compensated and then we get some yahoo saying it is money that is the problem. No it is greed. Then we fall into that never ending trap of defining things such as "excessive."
Look at the current housing market in the US. Money is not the problem. The problem is that people's compensation expectations are too high and thus have inflated housing values far past the norms they should be at. This includes the people selling the house, the agent/broker, the lending institution, to include the Fed Reserve which sets the prime, etc. Now the Fed may not directly get any compensation but it acts in the interest of investors of those lending institutions that are looking at higher returns for their buying debt (carrying the debt by investing money, ie their time/effort).
Next we can say that not all people who have money are happy. That does not mean that money cannot provide you with things that help you feel happy. That person could have earned that money or got the money off the blood, sweat, tears off another which is typically how a lot of people who have a lot of money make their money. Nor can we say that it is money that makes that person who has money unhappy. If a person who has money is unhappy because they have money then by all mines give to my charity fund. PM me for the address.
Now one who does not have money may not be happy because of that or unhappy because of that. Their social contract may have been negotiated that they feel compensated. It should be easy to see that most people would feel a lot more happy if they had no debt. The more money you have does not mean that you have less debt but the basic things in life are really non issues. George HW Bush will have the best health care in this country, He will not worry about the basic things in life. What person in this country who does not have the money to do that would not be happy with that? Most of them bust there asses earning the compensation they do that that in many cases just carries them to the next month. Most of them will never be at the level of George HW Bush. It is not because they do not try. George HW Bush can do a lot of things that will reduce any stress levels he has. Those who have far less money will simply have to lower expectations to keep feeling they are being compensated for their time/effort. Many of them do not have access to things that will lower this bad stress.
This will not change simply because we get rid of paper and or coins. Think of George HW Bush instead as someone who owns all the land in SoCal. Everyone in order to live on his land will have to give a percentage of their crop/livestock/goods they make, etc to good ole george. If we had unfettered capitalism this feudal type system could still play out with instead the corporation being the feudal lord and owning the land. In many cases we do have that now, that is corporations buying up residential real estate.
As far as wars go why are they started? Simply because of money? No because of power. Power over others. Power to get whatever you desire, etc. Power to determine your own destiny. Again no paper currency and no coin then it would be he who controlled the natural resources and manufacturing capabilities. Wars are fought over something perceived to have value. Person who has 10 bucks to their name would have have access to very much power but one who had 80 billion would have access to buying a lot of power.
Plus look at Bill Gates for example. What was his motivation? Was it simply to make more money or was it the power that he had at his finger tips to crush a foe or a perceived foe? Money did certainly help him facilitate that. It was not to put out the best product on the market. Although that may have been a rationalization he used for his own social contract.
A free Iraq means a shitload of consumers, people just waiting to get into debt to make shitloads of money for a few people.
For your next task prove jesus existed and actually did those things.
_________________
Smacks & Manly Thumps,
The Cap'n
Sons of Griogair
http://www.atheists.org
http://www.clangregor.org/famous.htm
http://www.merchco-online.com/metalbladerecords/
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream |
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futurefreak
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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1. Money is nothing.
2. Rotating money is something (important).
3. Wrong money must be driven around by two destructive things:
a) inflation (2% per year)
b) never less than 5% interest for a never balanced market
4. Right money is driven around by itself.
a) no inflation
b) balanced market, interest = +- 0%
5. A civilisation that uses wrong money can never survive. It can only live from one war to the next.
6. A civilisation without money is impossible.
7. A civilisation that uses right money can live forever. Jesus was the first one, who realized this truth. The bible never talks about a single human being, it talks about civilisation. "God" is the main principle for civilisation (culture). But God is not money, of course!
The bible knows three Gods: God of genesis_1, God of genesis_2, God of the new testament. The first God donīt use money, the second God uses wrong money, the third God uses right money.
Why is money so important? This is the fundamental difference between genesis_1 (perek aleph) and genesis_2 (perek bet).
The first (cultural!) human beings of perek aleph are not yet "alive". They are only "a picture of God". Those first cultural human beings (old egypt, inka, etc.) were more like ants. They didnīt live for their own, they only had to work for their culture (centralized communism without money).
The human beings in the garden of eden (perek bet) were the first cultural human beings who used money (first "rain" on earth). The water is always a symbol for money (water also circles around!). No life without water, no civilisation with living human beings without money-circle! Now you have a free market with free human beings.
http://www.silvio-gesell.de/en/neo/index.htm
Silvio Gesell never thought about Jesus.
Jesus never directly thought about money.
Both never thought about christianism.
Both came to the same conclusion about an ideal civilisation.
Finally, this is very easy to understand. The only problem is, that people, who live only in the present, donīt want to understand this simple truth.
The craziest people of course are those, who want to be ants instead of human beings.
_________________
"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible." Arthur Charles Clarke, second law of prediction. |
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Holymagica
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Okay...I am bored with this topic....its closed down...too much off topic.  |
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