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| Original Rainbow vs. Original Sabbath |
| (Dio) Rainbow! |
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70% |
[ 49 ] |
| (Ozzy) Sabbath! |
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30% |
[ 21 ] |
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| Total Votes : 70 |
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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2195
Location: SoCal
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| agentalbert wrote: |
| Sentinel - If you're still out there, I'm curious to hear what one band you think is most important in the creation of heavy metal. If not Sabbath, who? |
The question remains though why does it have to come down to one band? This is the BS cause and effect debate that goes on in religious debates.
Who invented metal? All those who influenced Tony Iommi. That surely is never a thought in any single minded Sabbath as root fan. Maybe Chuck Barry or Elvis invented metal because without them would there had been a Beatles and since Ozzy states he wanted to be like the Beatles would there had been a Sabbath if not for the Beatles.
I am glad you bumped this thread because here is another that agrees with me or vice versa as in I agree with him.
Bands were not even calling themselves heavy metal until the 80s and that was as Ronnie was going out of Sabbath as well.
So who invented Heavy Metal? The media did and record companies used it as a selling point. Many guitarists of then did not list Iommi as a major or even an influence. In fact to many of those influences were in bands we would not consider metal. In the jacket for the 20th anniversary of a band called Black Rose they stated that their influences were Deep Purple and Kansas. This band was almost 3 years before Mercyful Fate. In the first several songs you can definitely here the DP influence with the keyboards. Kiss with is mammath stage shows, pyrotechnics, and makeup/costumes certainly were no infuence on metal. What was Sabbath in the 80s? The big Metal Invasion here in the states happened after Ronnie left Sabbath. Sabbath for the rest of the decade did not define the music. The music was defining it as Iommi tried to keep the name going.
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Pauchillo
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| I vote for Rainbow. Sabbath never have done something special... |
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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2195
Location: SoCal
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screaming_4_priest
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 294
Location: u.k
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Ok you do Realise that if we are talkin original there is no way Rainbow can win.
You are only counting one rainbow albem that was the first.
agaist 8 of the best of the Genre.
I beleive that
Jimi Hendrix
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin
Black Sabbath
Judas Priest
were the first.
Mostley i would say Black Sabbath were the first easly were the Heavyst.
And who could forget there debut Albem.
Jusdas Priest of coarse was not the first.
but if you notice All the bands above did not except the term Heavy Metal they all said we are a Hard Rock Band.
Were as Judas Priest were the first to embrace Metal as a term of music.
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agentalbert
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 606
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| DevinMacGregor wrote: |
| agentalbert wrote: |
| Sentinel - If you're still out there, I'm curious to hear what one band you think is most important in the creation of heavy metal. If not Sabbath, who? |
The question remains though why does it have to come down to one band?
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It doesn't HAVE to come down to one band. I was curious who Sentinel felt was the single most important of the many bands in the discussion. One can make strong arguments for Led Zep and Deep Purple, obviously. And I hear similarities to Sabbath's first album in some Cream, Hendrix, and then there is obviously Iron Butterfly.
I'm not concerned with who coined the phrase, how it was marketed, and how it has been mis-applied over the years. Musical genre is often defined retroactively. Bands that were once called metal or that are considered instrumental in the formation of metal aren't considered metal by many these days (Led Zep, for instance). I mean, there isn't much in common between Led Zep and Slayer.
I think that if you view a timeline, you can draw a line at the release of Sabbath's debut and that the line represents the formation of something new. It formed from heavy rock, which was still itself in its infancy. But it was definitely a step into a new musical world. |
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Bildo
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 1413
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: |
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I think the poll should have been more specific. Is the question: Who was more important or influential? Who do you like more? Who was more talented? etc.
I just decided to go with 'who was more important' and picked Sabbath.
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Serpens Mercurialis
Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: |
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It doesn't matter how many albums they made...
I voted Rainbow; just a personal choice.
This poll is interesting in that it doesn't compare two Dio bands, but two original bands which were both very solid at the time. |
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GamerGirl
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| agentalbert wrote: |
Well, the original Sabbath is the most important band in the history of metal. They did 8 albums to 3 Ronnie-Rainbow albums. Rising is an all time classic, but 6 of the 8 Ozzy Sabbath albums are also all time classics.
Sabbath takes it. Easily. |
As a professional musician, and analytically speaking, I fear I must grudigingly agree with you. As far as modern pop and rock are concerned, Ozzy/Sabbath has had a far greater impact than anything Dio did prior to his solo career. However, having said that, I must now part company with you in the assumption that having been responsible for the shaping of contemporary rock and roll (and pop !) into what it is today is a good thing. I mean, can any of us here, in this forum, state that we believe, unequivocally, that rock and roll has gotten better since 1976 ? Do you think that rock has evolved and improved, or, like me, do you think that it, save for a few contemporary bands I like here and there, has gone down the crapper ?! I'd say if you think, in general, that rock music has improved-and granted, I think it's tacitly understood that "improvement" is difficult, if not impossible to quantify- since the 70s and early 80s, then you are going to like early Ozzy Sabbath better than Rainbow. If, on the other hand, your musical tastes are like mine and you think that prog rock, acid rock, and other 70s musical phenomena left a lot of ground uncovered, and would like to see more bands experimenting with that type of music, you are going to prefer Rainbow.
I, for one, prefer Rainbow, but granted- it is a tough call, as I like both, the comparison is almost like apples and oranges to me. I do think Rainbow was a little more willing to experiment, and represents a far more diverse collection of musical stylings, but like you say, the impact of Ozzy's Sabbath is impossible to ignore.
Bottom Line: Cast my vote, after much deliberation, forethought and hand-wringing, for the 'Bow.
Peace!
Courtney Patricia 'GamerGirl' Parsons
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GamerGirl
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: |
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[quote="DevinMacGregor"]
| agentalbert wrote: |
| So who invented Heavy Metal? The media did and record companies used it as a selling point. |
Well met, Devin!! Well met!!
You have brought up my point exactly !! I honestly hope no one out there takes offense when I state that I believe, unequivocally, that the invention of the moniker "Heavy Metal" was NOT a good thing. "Heavy Metal," although I appreciate the sentiment, and must admit that most of the music that I like falls squarely under this "genre" only serves to musically castrate the bands whose music falls under that title. "Heavy Metal," like ALL musical genres (pop, classic rock, RandB, techno, hip-hop), is nothing more than a freakin' consumer-brainwashing sales tactic. It serves to SELL records, as record companies, using MTV and paid-under-the-table radio programmes and popular DJs, TELL people what they like and don't like, and people turn around and like a bunch of good sheep go to the CD store, in droves, to fork out their hard-earned cash to pay for a CD with maybe ONE or TWO tracks on it that they ever listen to, never mind the fact that they can hear the damn songs they bought the CD for 3 or 4 times an hour if they just tune in to MTV or a popular radio station. It's all a crock of s*&^% and a sham.
Heavy Metal not only serves to sell records, it deliberately limits the musician's creativity and artistic liscense. How? Well, take for instance, the Rainbow album "Long Live Rock and Roll." Fortunately, that album exists intact only because it was recorded during the much-critically-maligned prog rock era, when record companies were willing to experiment, and weren't afraid to take a chance!! The song "Rainbow Eyes," from LLRR, is a perfect example. No slow song like this was ever done by Dio during his solo era again. Why not? Is it because it's not a good song, perhaps ? Of course not, it's an awesome freakin' song!!! It's one of the best Dio songs ever!! So why doesn't Dio write more songs like that? Quite simply because the record companies won't allow it!!! Now that Dio has been so rudely stuffed into the "Heavy Metal" category, if he were to take a song like that to his producers, they would say: "You can't put THAT on the album!" and he'd say: "Why not?" and they'd say: "It's NOT metal, man. Do you want your fans to think you're getting old and losing your edge?!!"
Again, it is because of highly efficient and successful marketing tactics and the practiced, proficiently adroit methods of mental programming of music consumers on a global scale by Corporate America that music, with a notable few exceptions, in very large part sucks now. And It will continue said sucking until we, as Rockers, rise up and refuse to be brainwashed any more!!
Peace
Courtney Patricia "GamerGirl" Parsons
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"Do what thou wilt shall be the Whole of the Law"-Aliester Crowley
"Reality is the resultant of struggles between rival gangs of programmers."-RAW |
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shiva
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 102
Location: Abbotsford. B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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No one may have "invented" Heavy Metal, but Jimi Hendrix sure started it. 
Better band? I would give it to Sabbath. Give them their rightful due. 5 classic albums, nearly all of them in the top 100 lists, how can you not? |
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GamerGirl
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| shiva wrote: |
No one may have "invented" Heavy Metal, but Jimi Hendrix sure started it.
Better band? I would give it to Sabbath. Give them their rightful due. 5 classic albums, nearly all of them in the top 100 lists, how can you not? |
I can't argue with any of that! 
Personally, my musical tastes run the gamut. As I sit here today, aobut to purchase tickets to this monstrously rockin' tour-de-force, I also have Loreena McKinnett tickets for the Nasville show at the end of April securely in hand.
While I think a Rainbow album, in general, contains a far more diversified smorgasboard of musical stylings, which to me, is a big plus, at the same time, the kind of music Sabbath does, they do best- no one can do acid-rock/psychedelic-metal better. Thier sound is unique and unreproduceable. So, to me, such a comparison is meaningless... it's like comparing apples and oranges. It depends on what you like. However, I do think that Rainbow has influenced modern rock at a level far above that for which they recieve credit. They are probably almost single-handedly (with a bit of help from Bowie and like!) started the "glam-rock" movement- that is not to say that their stage show and public appearances did this, but their music, once they left behind the prog-rock realm, cerrtainly paved the way for a more mellow pop-rock that was still heavy.
Does that make any sense? If it does, please explain it to me !
Courtney Patricia 'GamerGirl' Parsons
_________________
"Do what thou wilt shall be the Whole of the Law"-Aliester Crowley
"Reality is the resultant of struggles between rival gangs of programmers."-RAW |
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Pauchillo
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| I prefer Rainbow because of Richie and Ronnie... |
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agentalbert
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 606
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| GamerGirl wrote: |
| I mean, can any of us here, in this forum, state that we believe, unequivocally, that rock and roll has gotten better since 1976 ? |
Absolutely not. Sure there are good and even great things that came after, but imo, the ten year period from 1968 to 1978 is the most fertile in terms of rock music.
Nice to see a Nashvillian, Gamergirl. I used to live there, and my parents still do. I'm going there to visit in a few weeks and taking them to see Norah Jones at the Ryman. |
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GamerGirl
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| agentalbert wrote: |
| GamerGirl wrote: |
| I mean, can any of us here, in this forum, state that we believe, unequivocally, that rock and roll has gotten better since 1976 ? |
Absolutely not. Sure there are good and even great things that came after, but imo, the ten year period from 1968 to 1978 is the most fertile in terms of rock music.
Nice to see a Nashvillian, Gamergirl. I used to live there, and my parents still do. I'm going there to visit in a few weeks and taking them to see Norah Jones at the Ryman. |
Hail and Rock On!! to you, too, agentalbert!! Where do you live now? And thanx for agreeing with me!! I mean, c'mon, the musical movement started by king crimson, floyd, elp, tull, sabbath, the 'Bow and others, the whole "prog rock" thing, that was some of the best music ever. Dio as much as said he agrees with us himself, musically anyways, with his lovingly crafted and beautifully handled versions of "Gates of Babylon," "Tarot Woman," and even "Long Live Rock and Roll," though somewhat shortened, are still handled with care and reproduced with great respect for the original composition on the wonderful not-too-long-ago release "Holy Diver Live." Great album, that, I'd even go so far as to say it's one of the best live albums I own!! The gig was perfection incarnate, Hail and Well Met to the Man on the Silver Mountain!!
Back to Tennessee, I actually live in Shelbyville at the moment, though I spent a big part of my live in Nashville. Nice to see another Nashvillian here, too!! Are you planning on going to the Sabbath show? If so, when?
-Courtney Patricia "GamerGirl" Parsons
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"Do what thou wilt shall be the Whole of the Law"-Aliester Crowley
"Reality is the resultant of struggles between rival gangs of programmers."-RAW |
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stargazer
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 452
Location: UK.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| no contest, rainbow were miles ahead of sabbath musically. Sod heaven and hell a rainbow re-union is what everyone wants |
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