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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2195
Location: SoCal
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| piracy_of_life wrote: |
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the young are not open minded, they just think they are. In fact, they are entrenched in their own little tastes.
The masses like what the masses like - if you deviate, they will tell you that you are deviating. So hip hop and any crap is OK, but the music you mention (metal, renaissance, etc etc, it's a long list), deviates.
The young (and the not so young as well) in fact, are desperately trying to fit in, so they have a huge drive to conform, while at the same time they have to try and stand out of the crowd in order to find themselves a better place. This leads to a type of conformity based on looks and hype and being "different" which normally just means a particular combination of clothes, music, sport, and tastes. |
I don't appreciate your generalization of my generation. As Devin said the people at his work place get annoyed with his music and I'm pretty sure he doesn't work with "the young." This problem isn't specific to one age group, it's everywhere.
I know numerous kids may age who love metal and Dio. There's also many younger members here.
and personally I'm glad Dio doesn't have a massive following like Ozzy or AC/DC, I'm so sick of seeing their shirts everywhere. If I see someone wearing a Dio shirt or talking about his music I know immediately we have something in common. |
That is what I was trying to say in the last paragraph, that I was not saying all young people but it is a hell of a lot of them here in the states and enough to keep rock in general down.
The guy I was talking about is in his 20s. It is largely those who have been raised during what I call the hip hop generation. There are a lot of older people who do not like metal as well but they were raised during the rock era. Many of them do not like hip hop either.
There is a reason why many of these bands do tour in Europe and not so much here. Look at radio and TV. Satellite radio is not broad enough. Even wearing your hair longer is frowned more upon than it was years ago. I have heard nothing but hatred of the 80s come out of some who were born during the 80s so what the fuck are they talking about? Pop Culture has got them to dog the 80s.
I cannot count my nephews who all btw are wearing longer hair, 2 mop tops, and one buster brown. It is the two younger ones that have asked me for certain CDs. They are not the norm though and there is a huge tide to have to wade through that looks down upon this genre.
People my age and above are pretty much stuck on what they like now. It is the younger generations that have to carry that torch and we went from rock in the 50s to rock in the 60s to rock in the 70s to rock in the 80s to rock being shoved to the side in the 90s. There are a lot of bands out there that play in clubs but none to few getting nation wide status. It is the younger generation that has dropped this torch. It is not simply the issue of Ronnie never being as popular as Ozzy or AC/DC. The issue is the example of this 20 something being intolerant and disrespectful to other genres. Ronnie may have nothing good or nice to say about American Idol but look who gets voted off? Has anyone who resembled a rocker gotten close? It is more about Pop. And look how labels have dropped others who won that show so soon. No grooming. Nada. You either put out gold to multi platinum or we cut you.
We lack recognition at awards shows. Look at the Rock Hall of Shame ... I mean Fame. Why no Hard Rock Hall of Fame? Country has its own music awards and so does Hip Rock to include R&B. So why no Hard Rock or Metal music awards? We can say all night long how they are really professionals and do not care for the recognition nor need it but come on ... all of us like some praise from others and we are not simply talking of a people's choice awards but from their own peers as well.
Look what Robert Redford did for indie films, films that more than likely would never be featured in the Oscars etc. Where is our Metal Robert Redford?
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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2195
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| nunoni wrote: |
sorry, I was not talking about a generation in particular, but about "l'air du temps" - the general feel of the times.
About conformity - there is need to conform to a minority taste, so people don't have to conform to those playing metal... but conformists, which are the majority, do have to conform to the majority taste, be it hip hop pr whatever. They conformed to Hair Metal back in the 80s!
Coming back to my point, it's simply that there is no point in trying to give people a musical education, it's so much effort wasted in vain. But we do have to assert our right to our taste and to listen to our music!!! |
And there you have it ... hair metal. No such animal. If you mean more mainstream or commercial sounding then I am with you but they all wore fucking long hair. Ronnie poofed. So did Judas Priest. Shit load of bands did then. It was simply the time. The same as bell bottoms in the 70s.
Hair Metal is a derogatory term created by the media to get YOU to turn your back on what was putting metal on the map and giving incentive to record companies to EVEN look at harder acts. The term is meant to draw out hatred from you so you conform to the new while abandoning the old by making demons out of the past. Any metal fan though should not be falling for that and falling into elitism. We should be showing more solidarity.
It was not so called hair bands or even grunge. By the mid nighties most of the popular acts had petered out with lineup changes, members dying, bands going on hiatus, and taking longer to put out albums. If you do not keep producing, the herd, which is the majority, will forget. What was the long cold winter was the media's attention given to what it thought was the new conformity ... hip hop. White suburbia was told that going urban was cool while they trashed what was the 80s. And hip hop was pushed in to fill the gaps because Rock could not get its shit together for a few of those years. Rock stumbled before when disco and punk were thriving but it bounced back and screamed for vengeance. It has yet to do that since hip hop was thrust to the limelight. The suits simply go where they smell green and the marketing execs show no mercy in demonizing the past to sell us hamburgers next Tuesday.
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Smacks & Manly Thumps,
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Sons of Griogair
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nunoni
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| DevinMacGregor wrote: |
Hair Metal is a derogatory term created by the media to get YOU to turn your back on what was putting metal on the map and giving incentive to record companies to EVEN look at harder acts. The term is meant to draw out hatred from you so you conform to the new while abandoning the old by making demons out of the past. Any metal fan though should not be falling for that and falling into elitism. We should be showing more solidarity.. |
agreed that it did put the Majors looking for harder acts! That was the most positive thing that came out of it. But remember that Metallica was signed by a major based on the huge commercial succes of their two first albums that together sold about 1 million while on an independet company! But yes of course, it put metal on the map.
But... I have to show no solidarity towards music that I completely dislike, such as some of the 80s bands that came under the moniker "metal" or "hair metal". In fact, I'd rather listen to a pneumatic drill at full blast than to any of those bands!!! So no solidarity with Ratt, Poison, Crue, or even Van Halen of the Jump era.
At the same time that those bands were making some of the soul-less music ever, there were metal bands making some of the best music ever. Throwing the "hair metal" bands down the gutter of history is not turning our backs to the past! The waters must be separated - I refuse to include Dio, Manowar, Metallica, Slayer, Priest, Maiden in the same category with Ratt or Crue. They belong as together as much as Beethoven and a pneumatic drill do!!!
Last edited by nunoni on Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nunoni
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| DevinMacGregor wrote: |
By the mid nighties most of the popular acts had petered out with lineup changes, members dying, bands going on hiatus, and taking longer to put out albums. If you do not keep producing, the herd, which is the majority, will forget. What was the long cold winter was the media's attention given to what it thought was the new conformity ... hip hop. White suburbia was told that going urban was cool while they trashed what was the 80s. And hip hop was pushed in to fill the gaps because Rock could not get its shit together for a few of those years. Rock stumbled before when disco and punk were thriving but it bounced back and screamed for vengeance. It has yet to do that since hip hop was thrust to the limelight. The suits simply go where they smell green and the marketing execs show no mercy in demonizing the past to sell us hamburgers next Tuesday. |
and here you have it absolutely right.
I'd add one thing, hip hop at it's rap origins, had the street credibility and truth, that rock had lost. Listen to older Public Enemy, it's good music. Or to the Fugees album. |
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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2195
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| nunoni wrote: |
| DevinMacGregor wrote: |
Hair Metal is a derogatory term created by the media to get YOU to turn your back on what was putting metal on the map and giving incentive to record companies to EVEN look at harder acts. The term is meant to draw out hatred from you so you conform to the new while abandoning the old by making demons out of the past. Any metal fan though should not be falling for that and falling into elitism. We should be showing more solidarity.. |
agreed that it did put the Majors looking for harder acts! That was the most positive thing that came out of it. But remember that Metallica was signed by a major based on the huge commercial succes of their two first albums that together sold about 1 million while on an independet company! But yes of course, it put metal on the map.
But... I have to show no solidarity towards music that I completely dislike, such as some of the 80s bands that came under the moniker "metal" or "hair metal". In fact, I'd rather listen to a pneumatic drill at full blast than to any of those bands!!! So no solidarity with Ratt, Poison, Crue, or even Van Halen of the Jump era.
At the same time that those bands were making some of the soul-less music ever, there were metal bands making some of the best music ever. Throwing the "hair metal" bands down the gutter of history is not turning our backs to the past! The waters must be separated - I refuse to include Dio, Manowar, Metallica, Slayer, Priest, Maiden in the same category with Ratt or Crue. They belong as together as much as Beethoven and a pneumatic drill do!!! |
No one said you had to like anything, just do not keep calling it crap. Open your eyes, ALL rock decades had bands that were mediocre. You need to seriously get over your elitism. Ratt and Crue made what is rock n roll ... sex, drugs, and rock n roll with the first two changing order a lot.
And no the waters do not have to be separated. Hence another reason why metal stays in the gutter here in the States ... because of attitudes like yours. We as a group need to stop running logical fallacies of the True Scotsman. I see metal as a personal attitude more than simply how hard the band plays or one believes them to be born again hard.
Metallica got famous off its ... And Justice For All album when it made a video of One and it hit mainstream. Yuppies were buying into it. MTV played the shit out of it. Its success was further elevated when it released its follow up album ... Metallica or the Black Album. To many Metallica fans this was too commercial and the signs of them selling out. To which they did. They sold out huge arenas but NOT off their first two albums. More fans abandoned them as they released Load and Reload. They got signed to a major label because of the current metal acts selling huge amounts of albums. Regardless of how many albums they sold on their first two, no major label would had looked at them if say Def Leppard did not have back to back diamond status albums to which are just a small hand full of acts who can claim such status.
So what do I need to remember about Metallica in your example? Nada. One word for you ... women. Most harder acts are vast majority males. If metal is to be as popular as it was in the 80s then it needs to attract more females and the fewer exceptions of anyone raising their hand to say Hey I am a female I list to Black Metal does not change that fact. We need to remember what was the primary audience of Crue, Ratt, Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, etc etc. As we bang our drums of elitism we forget it was the female gender who helped bands like Slayer get more recognition otherwise they would had stayed underground. Females would not had let their boyfriends go see Slayer without the likes of those other bands. Then we have the Minivan factor ... that being as the relationship gets serious and little Johnny is in the oven we as adults tend to get lamer and throw aside this genre because it is seen as rebellious and since we are serious now we somehow believe we cannot be and listen to this genre at the same time.
The suits go for the green and what they feel is the next greatest slice of cheese. We can blame so called hair bands and grunge all we want but it is the media/RCs who stopped advertising/marketing it. MTV had for a long time been pushing more rap than metal long before 1995. Just looking at their programming should had been a big clue as Yo MTV Raps got prime time and Head Banger's Ball got the midnight hour on a fucking Saturday and to make matters worse they showed the same videos they showed in the daytime so no exposure or little to any of those indie bands. Not to mention the Hard 60 during the day got reduced to the Hard 30 which then had so many commercials that it was only a few videos shown.
I have no doubt as to why Ronnie is not known by more people since audio/video marketing/advertising has turned its back on not just metal but hard rock in general as well for a long time now here in the States.
Besides Beethoven and a pneumatic drill are awesome. Again, don't be so judgmental.
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Smacks & Manly Thumps,
The Cap'n
Sons of Griogair
http://www.atheists.org
http://www.clangregor.org/famous.htm
http://www.merchco-online.com/metalbladerecords/
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream
Last edited by DevinMacGregor on Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2195
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| nunoni wrote: |
| DevinMacGregor wrote: |
By the mid nighties most of the popular acts had petered out with lineup changes, members dying, bands going on hiatus, and taking longer to put out albums. If you do not keep producing, the herd, which is the majority, will forget. What was the long cold winter was the media's attention given to what it thought was the new conformity ... hip hop. White suburbia was told that going urban was cool while they trashed what was the 80s. And hip hop was pushed in to fill the gaps because Rock could not get its shit together for a few of those years. Rock stumbled before when disco and punk were thriving but it bounced back and screamed for vengeance. It has yet to do that since hip hop was thrust to the limelight. The suits simply go where they smell green and the marketing execs show no mercy in demonizing the past to sell us hamburgers next Tuesday. |
and here you have it absolutely right.
I'd add one thing, hip hop at it's rap origins, had the street credibility and truth, that rock had lost. Listen to older Public Enemy, it's good music. Or to the Fugees album. |
Street Cred and Truth? You are joking right? And how many who seriously listen to Hip Hop called 80s Rap the poor man's beat box era. They put that era down as being clowns. Shit loads of gold chains with huge objects hanging from their necks. Large tennis shoes untied. bright ass colored clothes. etc etc. Gansta Rap that was pushed out in the 90s was seen as far more street cred and truth. They were seen as the real eyes and ears of urban America. This was pushed out to white suburbia as well. The former was possibly more upbeat while the latter was not. It is the latter that took over rap with its bitches and Ho's ... not to mention ebonics ... and glorifyin a gansta lifestyle.
Rock didn't lose anything. That is you just pissed off that some teeny pop metal act got more RC cred than your band du jour.
But again Rock has always been about sex, drugs, and rock n roll. 70s rock personified it while 80s rock magnified it more. Shit loads more picked up a guitar to get chicks and not simply to give you street cred or any truth. It was living that rock star fantasy.
You shouldn't be so judgmental especially when you were just saying everyone has a right to listen to what they like because people see street cred and truth in what they like not necessarily if it actually has any or not.
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The Cap'n
Sons of Griogair
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http://www.clangregor.org/famous.htm
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nunoni
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:51 am Post subject: |
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errr... I can judge music on music values alone, that's perfectly legit - hair metal is, on the whole, lacking musical imagination, writing talent, and quality. From a pure musical point of view. I can back this with solid argument as opposed to my mere opinion that I don't like the style either. You know this is correct.
As for sex drugs and rnr... that gansta hip hop shite you mention is just the same - sex drugs and hh. So the argument to support e.g. Motley Crue or e.g. 50 Cents is exactly the same.... that is, there is no argument based on musical quality.
Dio is a different matter.
Finally, where Metal is in the US, gutters or otherwise, does not concern me - I don't even care where Metal is in Europe, or in Portugal, or Lisbon which is where I live, or even in my neighbourhood - as long as Metal is alive in my brain and in other fans, that's all I want. And there, I make a huge separation of the waters - crap to the gutter, including all Hair Metal, quality to the top.
Frankly, I can't agree with your argument: because metal has fantastic things, better than almost all other popular music (popular as in "from and to the people"), we have to support the really bad things that also have the label "metal" attached to it? Surely we have to support quality independently of the label? |
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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2195
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| nunoni wrote: |
errr... I can judge music on music values alone, that's perfectly legit - hair metal is, on the whole, lacking musical imagination, writing talent, and quality. From a pure musical point of view. I can back this with solid argument as opposed to my mere opinion that I don't like the style either. You know this is correct.
As for sex drugs and rnr... that gansta hip hop shite you mention is just the same - sex drugs and hh. So the argument to support e.g. Motley Crue or e.g. 50 Cents is exactly the same.... that is, there is no argument based on musical quality.
Dio is a different matter.
Finally, where Metal is in the US, gutters or otherwise, does not concern me - I don't even care where Metal is in Europe, or in Portugal, or Lisbon which is where I live, or even in my neighbourhood - as long as Metal is alive in my brain and in other fans, that's all I want. And there, I make a huge separation of the waters - crap to the gutter, including all Hair Metal, quality to the top.
Frankly, I can't agree with your argument: because metal has fantastic things, better than almost all other popular music (popular as in "from and to the people"), we have to support the really bad things that also have the label "metal" attached to it? Surely we have to support quality independently of the label? |
Fuck you are being daft. This was your comment which you are showing lack of: "peace and respect for everybody, even if they like the most disgusting pop!"
LOL you go on to talk about street cred and truth but then try to be flippant about gansta rap when it had far more street cred and truth than 80s rap which was seen as far more cartoonish. People latched onto gansta rap not simply because of the bitches and ho's but because it spoke to the inner city life of hard knocks. It spoke to them in a far more real manner than previous rap did. This as well transcended ethnic boundaries and even spanned across the oceans. So you can stand there or sit and with again an elitist attitude and act like there is no argument of quality of music while your fallacy is that you are in fact arguing its quality while millions of others like its quality. It is like arguing that a card board box has no quality when it simply has no quality to you but has far more quality to many others.
I never said metal did not have fantastic things just a reality check that ALL genres had the good, the bad, and the ugly. Metal is no exception.
Hair metal is a derogatory term that is applied to any band that a particular person does not like which was typically more mainstream and trendy than the bands they liked. What you are referring as legit is your opinion and nothing more. People have applied hair metal to Ronnie whether you like it or not. It is their opinion. You mentioned Manowar so come on ... there are people who will question the quality of those lyrics not to mention their look not to mention vocal talent, etc. Some have referred to that band as buttmetal which is another elitist term. How many non "hair metal" metal bands sucked? Shit loads and hence my point. So no I do not know you to be correct but just one more elitist who believes his opinion and taste are fact when they only are to you and not the world. So much for that agnostic scientist, eh?
I simply see the writing on the wall that those bands you want to dis sold millions of albums with armies of chicks with that band's name across the t-shirt over their heaving bosoms and that as a juggernaut it propelled the genre forward. When those bands self destructed there was nothing to keep the genre momentum going forward. It is pointless to call them crap etc. Again no one said you had to go buy every damn album out there but you were giving lectures on not educating people in music history lessons and about peace and respect. Are you showing any?
If the room was void of rap, pop, soft rock etc would you be so peaceful and respectful towards someone who listened to Motley Crue or Ratt? Would you try to educate them in your True Scotsman logical fallacy? As Bobby was trying to tell us a true metal head would not listen to Black Metal yet he has YET to produce guitar playing that is better while yet again felt his judgment was the law of the land and not simply his opinion.
We surely support what we like and hence we buy what we like which amplifies this support but it was never my point that one has to buy everything to be supportive. It is calling the other subgenres crap that you particular do not like that I see as pointless while trying to act legit with the true Scotsmen fallacy mindset.
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Smacks & Manly Thumps,
The Cap'n
Sons of Griogair
http://www.atheists.org
http://www.clangregor.org/famous.htm
http://www.merchco-online.com/metalbladerecords/
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream
Last edited by DevinMacGregor on Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Beast_Regards
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I like how the idiot who started this thread was unable to spell education correctly. |
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Nurse Ratched
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 1033
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Beast_Regards wrote: |
| I like how the idiot who started this thread was unable to spell education correctly. |
Wow, that is pretty funny how the topic was, "why are most people so stupid and I misspelled educate. Ha ha ha. Wow, that's really funny.
I actually really am an idiot...I failed school in like the 2nd grade or something like that...I'm a manager, well, I'm doing my internship to be assistant manager of a trailer park in Bakersfield, and as soon as my welfare check gets here, I'm gunna finally have my front tooth replaced. It's cool having this hole here for spittin' sunflower seeds and all, but peeple look at me kinda funny.
Yeah, I'm a real idiot. I just pretend to be a nurse. Oh well, not everyone can be as perfect as you Beast...but that's my new goal in life!!! 
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DevinMacGregor
The Cap'n
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
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Location: SoCal
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Belial of Metal
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Everywhere
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Agree |
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| My friends are IDIOTS!!!! They have never heard of Dio, Haven and Hell, or Elf!! They hardly know anything about rock. Then I ask, "What do you listen to?!" and they reply "punk "rock"" Yeah right! thats "great". |
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Turtle
Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I'm surrounded by rap, hip-hop, pop listening idiots in my class. There's actually a guy who says that Stars Are Blind by paris hilton is the best song ever!? I heard four second of it and I could feel my brain melting out of my ears
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GUITARGOD
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 2183
Location: Pendleton Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Beast_Regards wrote: |
| I like how the idiot who started this thread was unable to spell education correctly. |
Blow it out your butt pal, poor spelling really has nothing to do with how smart you are. Deep thought about the world around you will cary one far. Leave the Nurse alone!
What a dick! 
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